Do we really need democracy?

[Alien]

Given the current situation in Bangladesh, this question keeps coming up in my mind. What we achieved in the last few weeks under the state of emergency, we didn't achieve that much since the independence. The ACC, which was buried in it's own share of corruption is finally taking steps to eliminate the key cause of sufferings and inequity in Bangladesh- corruption.

Restoring democratic rights will only give it back to people who have been abusing it under the name of democracy. IMO, we are perfectly better off without it. For a country like Bangladesh, democracy is another name of anarchy.

[Navarene]

Originally Posted by Alien
For a country like Bangladesh, democracy is another name of anarchy.

Partially true....in the context of practicing "democracy" in our country.

The way our leading politicial parties teach us about 'Democracy' is vague and subject to anarchism. Why? Because the definition of democracy of our customary politics are:
-- that there should be multy political parties in a country
-- that they should be given the right to express and propagate their respective political opinion and ideology
-- that the parliament election should be seen in after every certain period
-- that this way the winning political party will form and govern the state mechanism

This is the concept of democracy our customary politics own in Bangladesh. And this is what our customary politicians teach us what "democracy" is. How can we then oppose the right of the fundamental Islamic parties, namely Jamayat-i-Islam, when they express and propagate their political ideologies? According to our customary definition of democracy, we have no valid right to show enmity if Jamayat wants to establish the reign of Allah and to slaughter the 'Kafirs'.

In fact, the customary definition and the daily basis idea of democracy is simply confined within the 'code of practice' ; hence this code of practice tells nothing about the essence and inner significance of democracy. To cast votes or perform election are not democracy. It is rather one of the customs of how to practice democracy. I think we must not forget this thing, or we will never be able to realize as to where our customary politics do the mistake in particular. This politics fails to differentiate between "democracy" and it's "way of practice". If there is no democracy at all, then what on earth we will do with it's practice? Our customary politics never understand the fact that the gist and essence of democracy must be established before implimenting it's 'way of practice'.

Now, what is democracy? What is the essence of this particular ideology? The essence of democracy is that Man Is Sovereign. Sovereignty of individual is the bottom line of democracy. We can put it in another way : "People Is Sovereign". Neither the state, nor the government, nor any political party, nor any damn one but only mass people is the owner of sovereignty. Unfortunately our customary politics and its politicians have failed to practice, instil and spread the conceptual facts and essence of democracy through out the mass, thus end up creating anarchy in the society.

[ammark]

lets have an open mind: Democracy is not just about going to the polls and casting a ballot for a national parliament. Such procedural antics only shows to the world a facade of "democratic, free and fair" governance, while the Citizens live repressed lives, without rights, liberties and freedoms.

Political Participation and proceduralism is only supposed to be a means to the greater good: the sovereignty of the individual to lead a well meaning, prosperous life with dignity.

So here's my question: given the "procedural" democracy in Bangladesh, how much of our rights, liberties and freedoms do we enjoy as guaranteed by the Constitution of our country? If we are truly democratic the citizens of Bangladesh would hold accountable, answerable every person in governance for every little thing that they do. Our constitution gives us that right, but do we in reality have it? Can we complain about a govt minister grabbing my property without fearing repercussions and repression? Is the government doing enough to make sure the citizens sleep clothed and fed at night, instead of taking relief materials meant for the general public and using them for private accomodation at the MP's factory?


For all these we need enforcement of Law... without it, there can be no democratic life. How can we clamour for this silly procedural democracy when we dont really have the right to criticise the powers that be, the freedom of mobility, the freedom to profess my faith without injustice, the right to earn a living without seeing it stolen from me and all such liberties that give meaning to citizenship and political, social, economic existence? As I understand it, true democracy only exists when I can live my life with these rights and liberties

So my point to you mr. Alien - although I agree that in light of the CTG giving people more such liberties, rights and security of life and property, than any elected government, stop constraining the definition of democracy to the holding of elections, and Incorporate rights, liberties, freedoms and emphasising the right to criticise, condemn and punish those that break the essence of democratic life. Without these, there will never be any "Democracy"

[layperson]

There no perfect democracy in the world. The extent to which democracy is practiced in Bangladesh compared to the more civil nations is what is an alarming factor. Democracy in its purest form can be a good form of governance but then again there is no such thing that exists in this world. In light of Bangladesh's situation currently, politicians are just looting the public coffer in the name of democracy. I am sure no mature adult who has a mind of their own will support this kind of democracy. However, the power to vote is a very important tool in democracy and this is how the general public makes its voice heard at the end of each government's turn. Hence we cannot just do away with democracy for an indefinite period of time as that will tend to instill a sense of autocracy in the present government. Whenever any person thinks that they are beyond the law that is when all the problem starts. Giving an indefinite period to the present government has the risk of making them feel this way. I know for sure that the people in the current government now will not do anything worse than the previous ones but in fact would do much better but I am still not ok with the notion of someone having an indefinite period of rule. This is bound to make things go wrong in the near future. Democracy also is not working in the current scenario as we have only two major parties and not much choice for the voters in that sense because both have their extreme bad sides and very little good things to write home about. The question raised by Alien is a tricky one and a very valid one.
My personal preference would be that the current interim government should govern until the criminals who are behind bars now and the one's who will be put behind bars in the coming days, are sentenced or their cases disposed off. Otherwise the next elected government will let these people go scott free unless Dr. Yunus's party comes to power which is very unlikely.

[Pundit]

We need it all the way up your and my prostate. He who hasn't figured it out yet...I pity the country that person is from.

What we have had in BD since 1991 is a half baked democracy. This time we need to complete the second phase of it...enforce transparency and create anti-corruption laws that no one is above.

I hope many of these BNP, AL, Jamaat, Ershad folks get incarcerated for a period and then banned from politics for ever.

No more moholla goons running politics at the national level.

[Pundit]

Also, your two questions are not objective, and stated with pre-meditation and wrong underlying assumptions.

[layperson]

Pundit: So what is your stance on this issue? You just said you want democracy. Does that mean you want this interim government to hand over power to an elected government by a certain deadline? If that is the case then what is the deadline? Just wanted to get a clear understanding of where you stand on this.

[Alien]

Problem is that we Bangladeshi's don't know how to handle democracy, else how do we let these 2 women keep running the country for last 15 years? Bangladesh has seen it's share of political turmoil and riots. How many of these riots were against both BNP and BAL?

How many people came to the street and protested the whole political arena to be cleaned up, rather than scream pro-BNP and pro-BAL chants?

Many Bangladeshi's haven't been exposed to the world outside. I am talking about rural and the lower class of urban people. They never seen how things run in Europe or other western countries and grew up in poverty and corruption. So you can't blame them for picking these rotten parties for government.

What disgusts us (the political scenario) is perfectly normal to them.

[Pundit]

Just noticed that our comrade Alien is from...what, is there a country still with that name? Anyway, that explains your misgivings around democracy. But honestly, what did you expect, the people of Bangladesh will wait to begin democracy until you returned to your country? You go to this one country outside of Bangladesh, and all of a sudden that entitles you to pass so much judgement. Bangladesh is ready for democracy, and has always been - we just need to get rid of our low lifers and others who sit on their thumbs all day and hope for a miracle to save there country.

And that brings me to Mr. Shahriyar. You history of postings here clearly show that you are in favor of one party, which happens to be bearing the brunt of the CTGoverments crackdown. But lets atleast be partially decent here, and regardless of whether we support BNP or Al, rejoice at efforts underway to cleanse them somewhat. Who knows, maybe the people will love them more then, they they will be voted back to power.

And those of you who love the military, I do too. I want ours to be strong as all the paddy sheaf of Bangladesh combined. And I want them to woop India's rear if they ever look at us with wanton eyes

But the more the military stays within the barracks the more we can say that we are taking one step forward as a nation.

[ammark]

Why is there this belief that democracy is only about voting a party to power? That is just SO NARROW Minded. The Constitution of Bangladesh in its written form provides so much freedom and liberty to its citizens, yet we never think of that and instead equate democracy with elections. I would equally want communism, socialism, autocracy or any other form/ideology as long as my individual rights and freedoms as a person is guaranteed and respected. Elections is secondary. Liberal Democratic forms of government in the west seem to provide a very efficient way for running a country by guaranteeing citizen's say, rights and liberties, but equally Singapore and Malaysia's sometimes coercive one party rule have yielded so much prosperity to their citizens. Bollocks to elections if I cant live my life prosperously with an elected government! Democracy is the way only if EVERY person's life as a citizen counts, and is respected by the Politicians and their supporters.

[Pundit]

So ammark, how do you know that the one party that is meant to bring prosperity to your life will actually do so? I mean, the good folks of Singapore are really not going to let you borrow their party, right? Or did you think they would?

And what if the party (yes, just that one party) running your country falls out of YOUR favor? What are the odds of that happening? I'm gonna guess with you being a Bengali, it will be pretty high. Then what do you do? Walk into the President's office to claim resignation, and he just hands it over to you.

Actually, its you folks who are unrealistic here. You have to take responsibility of your acts. Begin doing so in a singular fashion and then propagate it. Expecting a single party to show up and fix your country, or the military coming and sweeping your streets, just reflects your wanting magic to happen.

[Nasif]

Originally Posted by Pundit
Just noticed that our comrade Alien is from...what, is there a country still with that name? Anyway, that explains your misgivings around democracy.

AFAK, he doesn't live in that area. I believe he is down in Aus land.

[ammark]

Pundit, I dont think you got my point. I dont care what form of government it is. As far as I'm concerned as a citizen I have my rights and freedoms. The only way I can enjoy those rights and freedoms is if the law is enforced to uphold the constitution of our country which spells out these rights and freedoms. Thats why election'er jonno ar regime change'r jonno hau kau kore ekhon kono laabh nai. All governments, irrespective of whether it is elected "democratically" or selected by merit, etc are bound to serve the people. In democracy the factors "of the people and by the people" are added. But there's really no point to all this if no party will actually live and work in a democratic ethos. It all will be an unjust political system for the citizen. I mean, whats the point if an elected party comes and willfully ignores and works against the Most fundamental parts of the very constitution which gives them the right to serve as a government?! Stop talking about democracy in terms of procedure, and think of the substance before anything else. Democracy has more to do with liberties than the holding of elections.

and for your ref: Constitution of the People's Republic of Bangladesh, with emphasis on the first 3 Parts. You can also start pondering why Parts 2 and 3 have been spoken of before the Parts dealing with the holding of elections and governance.

[layperson]

Originally Posted by Pundit

And that brings me to Mr. Shahriyar. You history of postings here clearly show that you are in favor of one party, which happens to be bearing the brunt of the CTGoverments crackdown. But lets atleast be partially decent here, and regardless of whether we support BNP or Al, rejoice at efforts underway to cleanse them somewhat. Who knows, maybe the people will love them more then, they they will be voted back to power.

OK now this tirade of me supporting or being Pro BNP has been going on since that time when I was unable to post for a while on BC. I can proudly and honestly say that I hate both the parties and DO NOT support any one of them. I hate Al more than BNP but that does not mean I like or support BNP. I can challenge anyone here inlcuding you Mr PUndit to find one single post of mine where I have supported BNP. You can find hundreds of post of me dissing both parties but more of Al because of greater degree of hatred. I have also gone and supported the crackdonw on by the caretaker government and have said even in this thread that I would like to see the corrupt people beihnd bars actually gettinf sentenced within this interim government's reign. If you or anyone can show one single post of mine where I have supported BNP then I will bow down to you. If not then I would not like to be coloured as someone I am not based on some weird assumptions. I dont know how people can be so impulsive and judgemental without even knowing for sure. Its not only you but some other members also feel this way. I think all your basis is that since I hate Al so much I must be a BNP supporter which is a very flawed logic. If I did support any party then I would not deny it .

[ammark]

...and for the record, I voted that YES we need democracy, since the word is VERY all encompassing and includes the values and beliefs I hold in utmost importance. Our country's very constitution enshrines these rights, just as it also happens to speak of a system of government that is supposed to uphold and respect those rights (mentioned specifically as a parliamentary representative system).

Secondly, given the inherent vagueness of the words "as soon as possible" I will assume that time will only come when political parties, aspirant politicians, etc are all mindful of their duties and can effectively be charged for transgressing on the law abiding citizen's rights liberties and privileges. All very lofty ideals, but I'll take whatever steps the CTG gives me to these ends, and I'll allow them as much time as they can possibly need, since its for the ultimate good.

[zakirc]

Originally Posted by Pundit
No more moholla goons running politics at the national level.

Hypothetically, what if they are democratically elected through a free and fair election?

[zakirc]

The poll answer options are not sufficient. There are intermediary answers that I believe most of us would want. Such as,

"Yes I want democracy, but election may be deferred until the point when sufficient cleansing is done."

[Alien]

Originally Posted by zakirc
"Yes I want democracy, but election may be deferred until the point when sufficient cleansing is done."

That's what we all want don't we?

Just noticed that our comrade Alien is from...what, is there a country still with that name?

There you go. Spoken just like Hasina or Khaleda. Begin with a dumb rhetoric and end with some baseless arguments.

Anyway, that explains your misgivings around democracy. But honestly, what did you expect, the people of Bangladesh will wait to begin democracy until you returned to your country? You go to this one country outside of Bangladesh, and all of a sudden that entitles you to pass so much judgement. Bangladesh is ready for democracy, and has always been - we just need to get rid of our low lifers and others who sit on their thumbs all day and hope for a miracle to save there country.

Now you have spoken like the typical Hasina/Khaleda supporter.

Firstly, democracy, just like communism is very nice in pen and paper. Freedom, equity etc. But unlike communism when you put it into practice, it actually work BUT given people who are practicing it are desciplined (law abiding, minimal corruption). Bangladesh is no way near that. There is a massive gap between rich and poor. The rich seldom pay tax and abuse every tax laws out there and exploit workers. Thats what happens in a society that abuses freedom.

Then you got people who never follow any law as simple as traffic laws. Who these days follow the traffic lights? No one.

Which government took any solid step to fight corruption? No one. In last 15 years of Khaleda-Hasina-Khaleda, none of them, the so called people's democratically elected leader, did any any thing. Neither about poverty nor about corruption.

The list goes on....

So Mr. Pundit, I would say your analogy is very flawed. We all love to be proud of our nation. But our nation is a very screwed up one. Just forget you are a Bangladeshi for one second and look at the country from a foreigners perspective.

Part of the process of improvement is to accept the fault and correct them. If you say that Bangladesh is ready for democracy and "Alien lives in his own little planet where he practices his own form of political system" then you are merely saying we got no faults and should remain as such. I am sure every1 will disagree with that.

You may ask me why the heck should I care what other countries are like. Because in countries can be an example for us to follow. Nationalism is not always a good virtue if it makes puts your patriotic nose too high.

But the more the military stays within the barracks the more we can say that we are taking one step forward as a nation.

With an incompetent police force, who do you suppose will do the job of maintaining security in the country? I agree, they should stay in the barracks but when we need them (like now), and they do their job properly and take orders from the government, then there is nothing to worry about.

There is no military coup in the country. So I don't know what your worry is.

[Ovi Khan]

Democracy should stay, but the form of Democracy in BD should be improved. Democracy is supposed give us freedom of speech without fear of getting choped into 16 pieces by "kedars". The election shouldn't be haulted, I think that Dr. Yunus should be given a chance. Out of what I've read about his policies, I think it's the perfect kind of political party for BD at this moment; but only time will decide that.

It's true that the caretaker government is doing a comparatively good job, but we can't give them absolute power. That would be disastrous; history speaks for itself.

[zakirc]

That's what we all want don't we?

So you know we all want that, yet you clearly did not have it in your poll option. Man !!! Democracy definitely would excel to its peak if people like you controlled it.

Firstly, democracy, just like communism is very nice in pen and paper.

Thats your opinion. I had lots of debates about this and I never found communism nice even in pen and paper. For one thing, communism, by default (because of state ownership) reduces productivity, innovation & entrepreneurship.

Then you got people who never follow any law as simple as traffic laws. Who these days follow the traffic lights? No one.

When was the last time you visited Bangladesh? Get your sources of information straight before making a comment.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by zakirc
So you know we all want that, yet you clearly did not have it in your poll option. Man !!! Democracy definitely would excel to its peak if people like you controlled it.

thanks.

Originally Posted by zakaric
Thats your opinion. I had lots of debates about this and I never found communism nice even in pen and paper. For one thing, communism, by default (because of state ownership) reduces productivity, innovation & entrepreneurship.

That isn't exactly my opinion. If communism wasn't so popular theoretically, then Russian revolution would have been a failure, chinese working class wouldnt have supported Mao Zedong and create a communist state and Ho Chi Minh would have failed badly if he didnt garner support.

Problem is what happened when those theory was put into practice. USSR broke up in 1990, China revising its stringent law every now and then and slowly moving towards capitalism, Vietnam is becoming more lenient by the day. Those that didn't like North Korea remains the most screwed up nation on earth. Same with Cuba.

Originally Posted by zakaric
When was the last time you visited Bangladesh? Get your sources of information straight before making a comment.

I visited Bangladesh in December 22nd last year and remained there for 3 weeks. During that period my CNG driver and his fellow drivers including the big truckies and small rickshaws didn't stop at any traffic light. SO, try not to make smart a$$ comments if you cant argue properly.