Do religiously zealous sportsman offend your beliefs?

[samircreep]

I think if a Hindu BD captain said something about praying to shiva or whatever hindu gods he wants to pray to before every match, all hell would break loose in BD!

Anyways, I agree with you on your strictly public and private sphere theory as well.

Originally Posted by PoorFan
Well, many of us would not, none in BD should not bother ... yet in reality many in BD demand to be literally Islamic nation, Shariah law since majority are Muslim [as they claim] ... suggests otherwise. Criticism may arise that Hindu captain didnt show respect to majority faith and concern, obviously in time, it may lead unfair selection in the name of social interest. At some point both side can claim as their devine right etc., and since majority and minority balance remain almost as it is ... victim of unfairness bound to exist and increase.

All these talking [above bold lines of my post] are hypothetical but once such religious sect sentiment grows deep down, it become even hard to detect which is right and which is wrong, even more hard to recognize its [unfairness] existance. Tons of example could be found in our human history if we intend to look at.

As PAK captain Malik assumed or believed Muslims all over the world are supporting PAK team by [religious] default, and he felt sorry cause every Muslim felt bad or wished PAK win [again!] by default. And a lot of people may find his comment as right and honest, while people like me find it as lack of consideration or too much self-centric.

I always believe in 'private' and 'public' theory, and when you representing a group of people, its better to keep religion as 'private', unless its a matter of religion itself.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by samircreep
You're not getting the point. No one is making it illegal for Ash or anyone to speak their mind about religion; however, it's incumbent upon the national team captain to proclaim things, especially at an international press conference, to unite the team rather than making isolating comments. And if Ash, as team captain of BD, were to start quoting verses from the koran as inzy does, it would definitely not be a uniting statement would it.

Let's take a non religious example. When imran won the cup in 92, and started blabbering about how his cancer hospital endeavors for his mom inspired his captaincy, 90% of all pakistanis of whatever religion got pissed and rightly so. here was a monumental opportunity for possibly the greatest pakistani captain of all to say something inspiring that speaks for ALL the paksiatni players; instead, he starts blabbeing about his own personal goals (however noble they are) that spotlights him above everyone else in the team.

Again to reiterate: a national captain or ambassador has a different kind of responsibility. If ash starts reciting suras, no one is going to ban him. But if I were a BCB official, I would surely take him aside and rebuke him, just as I would rebuke him for talking **** and getting caught on tv.

only you know if you're problem is with potentially divisive topics or exclusively with religion. other than that there isn't a whole lot i can say to change your mind.

[samircreep]

try something new, like logic.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by samircreep
try something new, like logic.

what you're advocating is just another brand of censorship, this time on the captain of a sporting team.

would you be willing to extend the same censorship on say, Danish government officials who stood by the cartoonists? bear in mind that ash or LJ or Warner or Shiv isn't offending anyone else's religious sentiments.

[samircreep]

He's not offending anyone's religious sentiments but he's definitely offending any vestige of protocol as a team captain if he starts reciting a sermon in front of international press.

Where did you read any proposal of censorship on my part? What I'm pleading is some sort of self-censorship that is incumbent upon someone his stature and position (and this applies to the Danish cartoon case since you asked). The same applies to Ash if he starts swearing in front of the camera. Just because we have the privilege of freedom of speech does not mean we have to abuse it, and what people like Inzy and Danish cartoonists do is definitely abusing it.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by samircreep
He's not offending anyone's religious sentiments but he's definitely offending any vestige of protocol as a team captain if he starts reciting a sermon in front of international press.

Where did you read any proposal of censorship on my part? What I'm pleading is some sort of self-censorship that is incumbent upon someone his stature and position (and this applies to the Danish cartoon case since you asked). The same applies to Ash if he starts swearing in front of the camera. Just because we have the privilege of freedom of speech does not mean we have to abuse it, and what people like Inzy and Danish cartoonists do is definitely abusing it.

fair points, but a simple thought isn't abuse of freedom of speech in the way a calculated cartoon is. and its not fair to categorize a simple thank you as a sermon - which runs 30 minutes long.

and i don't think inzy is breaking the freedom of speech rule either...if its not offending anyone's religious beliefs then why should it be omitted? its not offending anyone's sporting beliefs or political beliefs is it?

[samircreep]

Again, for the UMPTEENTH time, let me reiterate: no one is breaking any freedom of speech rules. In fact, the phrase "freedom of speech rule" is the ultimate oxymoron since there shouldn't be any legislation about speech. Period. You can say whatever you want but the whole point of being a captain is being god damn (pun intended) selective over what you say!

Having said that, what Inzy kept on doing again and again is absolutely criminal (and I use that word very loosely). It's not just his religious reference, but the fact that he always kept on insinuating that whatever happened in the field was some sort of will of the gods. Now if you're a religious person (and I'm assuming you are), that's fine for you I guess, but it's definitely not fine for me. Surely the captain of a sporting team should get up on stage and start of by THANKING his players for winning a match, or kicking their *** if they lose? Could we keep the gods out of this one please and start taking personal accountability, even if you don't mean it?? Aaargh!

The cartoon controversy was more spontaeneous than you think it was. And please, to all my religious friends out here, there are OTHER norms than religious norms. Just because your religious beiefs are not being offended by something doesn't mean we the minority secular folk are fine with it. In fact, that's the point. The captain should get up on stage and give a very inclusive (read boring, non controversial) speech everytime. Let him retire first, write a damning book, and then make tons of money out of it.

[Orpheus]

Originally Posted by samircreep

Having said that, what Inzy kept on doing again and again is absolutely criminal (and I use that word very loosely). It's not just his religious reference, but the fact that he always kept on insinuating that whatever happened in the field was some sort of will of the gods. Now if you're a religious person (and I'm assuming you are), that's fine for you I guess, but it's definitely not fine for me. Surely the captain of a sporting team should get up on stage and start of by THANKING his players for winning a match, or kicking their *** if they lose? Could we keep the gods out of this one please and start taking personal accountability, even if you don't mean it?? Aaargh!
.

heh! are you serious. He can attribute his success to whomever the hell he wants to. Why do you matter here? You are there to watch his cricket - you got it. If you are offended by his religious reference, that's your problem. A religious person can as well say he is offended because the player thanked everybody but God. But who cares? Geez!!

how about taking offense when your team loses to friggen ireland.

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by samircreep
Again, for the UMPTEENTH time, let me reiterate: no one is breaking any freedom of speech rules. In fact, the phrase "freedom of speech rule" is the ultimate oxymoron since there shouldn't be any legislation about speech. Period. You can say whatever you want but the whole point of being a captain is being god damn (pun intended) selective over what you say!

Having said that, what Inzy kept on doing again and again is absolutely criminal (and I use that word very loosely). It's not just his religious reference, but the fact that he always kept on insinuating that whatever happened in the field was some sort of will of the gods. Now if you're a religious person (and I'm assuming you are), that's fine for you I guess, but it's definitely not fine for me. Surely the captain of a sporting team should get up on stage and start of by THANKING his players for winning a match, or kicking their *** if they lose? Could we keep the gods out of this one please and start taking personal accountability, even if you don't mean it?? Aaargh!

The cartoon controversy was more spontaeneous than you think it was. And please, to all my religious friends out here, there are OTHER norms than religious norms. Just because your religious beiefs are not being offended by something doesn't mean we the minority secular folk are fine with it. In fact, that's the point. The captain should get up on stage and give a very inclusive (read boring, non controversial) speech everytime. Let him retire first, write a damning book, and then make tons of money out of it.

the whole point of having a captain is to lead the cricket team, set the fields, choose the bowler to bowl, set the batting lineup. not to give inclusive speeches. in fact, IMO, the captain has a certain freedom to speak his mind, however much someone disagrees with him. thats kind of why the 12th man never speaks in front of the camera, even if he caused the match winning run out, or took a blinder at 3rd slip.

i respect you're right to be offended by whatever offends you.

now in the first clip i posted, LJ was not, IIRC, the captain of the knicks. would his religious comments be any more acceptable because he isn't the captain? in other words does he have less responsibility to keep inclusive remarks in his speech?

also what about minorities? suppose alok kapali wants to thank durga...is still offensive given majority of his team mates and countrymen don't have the same beliefs? what if he wants to celebrate his uniqueness from the rest of the teammates?

these are just rhetorical questions, though it would be interesting to see what people think.

[Sohel]

OFFEND? No.

Some annoy, some don't, it's all in the approach. For example, Inzi and Bimbo Malik with their down your throat approach and presumptions, annoyed me. Anwar, MuAh, MoYu, Amla and DeVilliers with their quieter approach never have.

There's a fine line separating the sublime and the ridiculous, and sincere gratitude from zealotry and Fascist imposition/coercion.

I have issues with and am somewhat suspicious of those who flaunt the "modest" garment of piety. That, ironically, is the worst kind of vanity. A fact easily lost amidst the cloudy waters of zealotry on display.

There's an appropriate Hadith related to this: -

"There will be people in my Community whose mark is that they shave (their heads). They will recite Qur'an, but it will not go past their throats. They will pass through religion the way an arrow passes through its target. They are the worst of human beings and the worst of all creation."

Hair is a traditional, eroticized symbol of vanity in Afro-Semitic as well as other ancient cultures BTW ...

[BANFAN]

Originally Posted by bharat
I dont mind ..as long as they dont make such comments as these

"'I want to thank everyone back home in Pakistan and Muslims all over the world. Thank you very much and I'm sorry that we didn't win, but gave our 100 per cent,"

--Shoib Malik

That's offensive anywhere in public, where the audience is a mix of all religions.

[samircreep]

Same applies to you doesn't it. Who the flip cares about what some kid sitting in the states think about the bangladeshi cricket team. and we can shout on and on.

But the bottom line is, and if you weren't illiterate you would actually read the posts above, a cricket captain is more than just a cricket player. Actually I'm going to stop writing now, this is tedious.

Go read the posts first son.

Originally Posted by Orpheus
heh! are you serious. He can attribute his success to whomever the hell he wants to. Why do you matter here? You are there to watch his cricket - you got it. If you are offended by his religious reference, that's your problem. A religious person can as well say he is offended because the player thanked everybody but God. But who cares? Geez!!

how about taking offense when your team loses to friggen ireland.

[samircreep]

Originally Posted by al Furqaan
the whole point of having a captain is to lead the cricket team, set the fields, choose the bowler to bowl, set the batting lineup. not to give inclusive speeches. in fact, IMO, the captain has a certain freedom to speak his mind, however much someone disagrees with him. thats kind of why the 12th man never speaks in front of the camera, even if he caused the match winning run out, or took a blinder at 3rd slip.

i respect you're right to be offended by whatever offends you.

now in the first clip i posted, LJ was not, IIRC, the captain of the knicks. would his religious comments be any more acceptable because he isn't the captain? in other words does he have less responsibility to keep inclusive remarks in his speech?

also what about minorities? suppose alok kapali wants to thank durga...is still offensive given majority of his team mates and countrymen don't have the same beliefs? what if he wants to celebrate his uniqueness from the rest of the teammates?

these are just rhetorical questions, though it would be interesting to see what people think.

I think your questions are important. Here's my crack at it:

1. You've answered the question yourself. A captain's comments are always more important than the 12th man or the vc. He's the captain for both cricketing and non-cricketing reasons. His comments are logically ten times more magnified than any other comment.

2. I've answered this question before. Is Kapali the skipper of the team? Is he celebrating his "uniqueness" with his family/teamates in his own place or is he doing it in front of media in his professional capacity as captain. You get the point.

Look, as I said before, BD can get away with so much because of the lack of religious diversity and thought process. I'm pretty sure if the Dutch cricket captain stood up and started thanking whatever calvinistic gods he supported in front of dutch camera, all hell would break out.

[Orpheus]

Originally Posted by samircreep
Actually I'm going to stop writing now, this is tedious.

Go read the posts first son.

but reading those posts are tedier ...

Samir bhai, eto cheiten na... ekta sura shunen - matha thanda hoiya jaibo. Al-efasi na ki naamer ek hujur - khubi shundor gojol kore...

[samircreep]

hehe

bhai, apni thiki bolsen, ireland er shathe khela dekhe asholei matha kharap hoye gese.

[indianx]

Anyone see the shirt that Lucio was wearing at the trophy presentation? I've never seen that before at a football tournament.

[shaad]

Originally Posted by indianx
Anyone see the shirt that Lucio was wearing at the trophy presentation? I've never seen that before at a football tournament.

They have done variations on that theme earlier. When Brazil won the 2002 World Cup, several of the players were wearing similar undershirts with a Christian message in Portuguese, which became visible when they exchanged jerseys.

[RazabQ]

Well this thread has definitely served one purpose: We know what get's Sameer's goat every-time ... and it isn't credit history ( couldn't resist Sameer).

The issue is I think slightly a bit nuanced. Those of us who are perhaps a little older, better educated recognize the subtleties of thanking team-mates, acknowledging the crowd, etc. But a lot of the players come from very simple upbringing (Imran Khan with his Aitchison & Oxford pedigree being a notable exception) and I don't think they think to that level. And as long as their tactical & leadership skills are not impacted, it really shouldn't matter. Sameer, what I'd say is secularism != intolerance. You don't buy the God mumbo jumbo - fine. But why resent it when someone who does just expresses some form of gratitude towards the all mighty? If Ash said, to the camera, "and I know all of you are praying to Allah for this victory", then you might have a valid gripe but the bugger prolly just won a match when we rarely do and he's reacting honestly to that. Let the players have some honesty in their expressions. In this spin-laden world we live in, it's not so bad I tell you ...

[Zeeshan]

spin-laden rhymes with bin laden

[samircreep]

One more month till my credit history disappears in a divinely inspired poof. I want to thank allah and all my fellow bc-ers for this famous victory over the evil credit card companies that tried to stop my hedonistic splurges....

Originally Posted by RazabQ
Well this thread has definitely served one purpose: We know what get's Sameer's goat every-time ... and it isn't credit history ( couldn't resist Sameer).

The issue is I think slightly a bit nuanced. Those of us who are perhaps a little older, better educated recognize the subtleties of thanking team-mates, acknowledging the crowd, etc. But a lot of the players come from very simple upbringing (Imran Khan with his Aitchison & Oxford pedigree being a notable exception) and I don't think they think to that level. And as long as their tactical & leadership skills are not impacted, it really shouldn't matter. Sameer, what I'd say is secularism != intolerance. You don't buy the God mumbo jumbo - fine. But why resent it when someone who does just expresses some form of gratitude towards the all mighty? If Ash said, to the camera, "and I know all of you are praying to Allah for this victory", then you might have a valid gripe but the bugger prolly just won a match when we rarely do and he's reacting honestly to that. Let the players have some honesty in their expressions. In this spin-laden world we live in, it's not so bad I tell you ...

[al Furqaan]

Originally Posted by Gopal Bhar
spin-laden rhymes with bin laden

LOL...i think its pronounced "spin-layden"