Man 'Survives Without Food' For 70 Years

[Ashfaq]

Originally Posted by Electrequiem
I don't see how this guy claiming to have fasted for 70+ years is any different from the miraculous feats attributed to prophets and other holy figures. The only thing working against this Guru is the fact that he lives in the age of video cameras and recorders, in an age where facts are cold and solid. Take that away from the equation, and you have the same proof that "backs up" the prophets' miracles: word of mouth. You can definitely find people who believe in this miracle of his.

With that said, I'll say I am highly inclined towards NOT believing this guy simply because I deem it unfeasible. By the same token, I also deem turning water into wine, splitting the moon, turning a stick, etc into a snake as unfeasible. I am just wondering how some can blatantly dispose this guy's story as "fake" and "bhua" while having utmost belief in the "miracles" of old.

Peace.

One difference between Miracles of Allah's messengers' and this "Rumour" is, as I said, Proof. Of course, the benchmark of proof is not the same, but c'est la vie.

One important think to understand about miracles of Allah is that Allah rarely breaks his own rules and many miracles (like the snake-stick one) can be explained. Furthermore, many miracles are distorted beyond proportion which makes believing them (as they are presented today) a bit tough.

Deep down, I never mix up science and religion. I imagine if I were a follower of this Guru, I'd bet my life that his claims are true. But as an ardent student of science, I only trust data and evidence. Also, as a devout Muslim, I know that this man has no connection to Allah. Either way, I can't put faith in this.

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by Electrequiem
. I am just wondering how some can blatantly dispose this guy's story as "fake" and "bhua" while having utmost belief in the "miracles" of old.

Peace.

Yeah that was the the point I was trying to drive home in my posts to TE bhai.

[Ashfaq]

Originally Posted by Hatebreed
Even IF it was possible to go without food and water for a prolonged period of time I would not give up on the pleasures of eating a good meal on a regular basis.

The way I see it, eating is a lot of necessary but annoying hassle. If meditation can give me inner peace AND keep me energized, I'd wash my hands off eating.

[Hatebreed]

Originally Posted by Ashfaq
The way I see it, eating is a lot of necessary but annoying hassle. If meditation can give me inner peace AND keep me energized, I'd wash my hands off eating.

Each to their own. If you are such a believer of meditation, you should be doing it anyway since meditation has been in practice for centuries, instead of waiting for some scientific proof of a dude claiming to have not eaten for 70 years(!).

Personally I could not stay away from all the delicious foods of this world. It would be a bit like being celibate. I don't have that much willpower.

[AsifTheManRahman]

Originally Posted by Hatebreed
Personally I could not stay away from all the delicious foods of this world. It would be a bit like being celibate. I don't have that much willpower.

Indeed indeed. Even thinking about it is a sin. A heinous crime.

[Neel Here]

Originally Posted by shaad
Unless proven otherwise, this fellow is faking it, and the Indian military medics need someone a tad more rational in charge. If they really want to test his claims, put him in the room calorimeter in say, the Human Nutrition Research Center in Beltsville, Maryland, and examine his energy intake and expenditure.

unlikely that they believe the complete story. that said, anecdotes and hearsay about people, not necessarily religious ones, living on very little food abound. obviously military will be interested in those. saw a report on TV some years back about a sixtyish woman who was said to be living on two cups of liqour tea a day.

BTW, ialbd, no one has demonstrated a functional perpetual motion machine given that, based on how you define it, it would contradict either the first law of thermodynamics, or the second.

2nd law.
____________________________________

Originally Posted by billah
No, no... it is an actual big mac. Where do you think all those leftover big macs go?

wow ! class is absolutely overflowing from this poster's comments.

[shaad]

Originally Posted by Neel Here
unlikely that they believe the complete story. that said, anecdotes and hearsay about people, not necessarily religious ones, living on very little food abound. obviously military will be interested in those. saw a report on TV some years back about a sixtyish woman who was said to be living on two cups of liqour tea a day.

Given that the military isn't generally interested in skillsets that take multiple years to develop (sophisticated martial arts, for instance; yogic techniques, in this case), I still don't find their course of action particularly rational.

2nd law.

As I said earlier, depends on your, or more accurately, the shill's/charlatan's definition of his PMM. I've encountered a couple who were fine with the 2nd, but made up for heat loss by claiming to violate the 1st.

[Neel Here]

Originally Posted by shaad
Given that the military isn't generally interested in skillsets that take multiple years to develop (sophisticated martial arts, for instance; yogic techniques, in this case), I still don't find their course of action particularly rational.

on the contrary, militaries are very interested in developing skillsets they find useful even if they take a long period of time. virtually every military has a compulsory basic martial arts course for its soldiers that run into a few months. those selected for special forces undergo even more rigorous and advanced training, over longer periods of time. btw, yoga forms a part of the daily routine in Indian army.

more sophisticated martial arts training is not imparted because it is not considered worth it,(modern soldiers are after all not supposed to fight with bare hands or nanchakus) not because it takes time. if it was found useful they won't have found it too difficult to introduce small segments in the regimented affair that is military life. of course, if they do find some useful technique they would modify it to a minimalistic version that suit their needs, cut down the flab so to speak, that reduces time and effort needed to learn it.

[Kabir]

On the contrary, I'm baffled to find all Indians being extremely defensive about everything Indian.

Bangladeshis are only defensive about their language and history. Anything current is like poison to us.

I've always come back feeling like an idiot when I tried to argue about anything Indian with my Indian friends/colleagues. Oh well - I guess I can just shake it off and say "hota hai...hota hai".

[Neel Here]

kabir bhai, if that point was about me I would like to clarify that I don't believe these claims at all, nor am I defending what I personally think is a hoax.

the point about the military is not about defending it, just a statement of facts and it is not about India in particular either. it applies to all militaries, I apologise if that wasn't clear from my post.

[shaad]

Originally Posted by Neel Here
on the contrary, militaries are very interested in developing skillsets they find useful even if they take a long period of time. virtually every military has a compulsory basic martial arts course for its soldiers that run into a few months. those selected for special forces undergo even more rigorous and advanced training, over longer periods of time. btw, yoga forms a part of the daily routine in Indian army.

more sophisticated martial arts training is not imparted because it is not considered worth it,(modern soldiers are after all not supposed to fight with bare hands or nanchakus) not because it takes time. if it was found useful they won't have found it too difficult to introduce small segments in the regimented affair that is military life. of course, if they do find some useful technique they would modify it to a minimalistic version that suit their needs, cut down the flab so to speak, that reduces time and effort needed to learn it.

Neel, you need to make a distinction between the actual research into developing skillsets taking a long amount of time, and the process of teaching skillsets taking an extended amount of time. Most militaries are willing to pursue the former, but not the latter -- it's not, as you yourself argue, cost effective.

Now, I can't speak about the Indian military, but I am reasonably familiar with practices both in the US military and Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Filipino martial arts, having close friends in both communities. The compulsory basic martial arts course taught is quite rudimentary, because teaching something more sophisticated is not worth it. When it comes to training for Special Forces, cost effectiveness is still an issue -- you don't want someone spending man-years becoming an expert at certain martial arts that would hardly ever be used when that same time could be used more effectively for developing other, more frequently used, skillsets. Generally, other than the rudimentary core course, there is no military-wide martial arts curriculum set up in the US. Individual units identify/determine martial arts that they would like to learn, and go and seek training in those. This generally consists of individual units visiting dojos/dojangs/schools that have a good reputation, sparring with the instructor or senior students there to see if they are actually formidable, and if they are, then trying to find out if the relevant skillsets can be learned in a short period of time. In most cases (and this is from talking both with the soldiers and instructors), they find themselves disappointed, largely because the relevant skillsets require considerable time in developing the necessary basics, and don't usually lend themselves to easily transferable and mastered techniques (there are, as always, exceptions).

My point is that, particularly from research already done on biofeedback and yogic practices, that the particular skillset (surviving without food and remaining effective for long periods) we are talking about in this thread (provided there is some basis to claims that are patently false) would require long and intensive training (at the expense of developing other useful skillsets); and that simply is not cost-effective from a military perspective.

[Neel Here]

shaad bhai, I'm not certainly not talking of the time taken for research that goes into developing a method and the time taken to teach that. OTOH, I think you are talking of only physical exercises as a skillset, those are only a small part of the training of a modern soldier, there are many other aspects that do require intensive training for a very long period of time and no military I know of is ignoring any of those.
it is not for nothing that soldiers undergo as much as a year of training at the start of their service, regular schedule keeps on honing those skills and a considerable percentage are chosen to undergo advanced training for even longer periods. just go through the courses that go into making a modern SF operative and the timelines involved, the training period is counter in years.

moreover, you are assuming that whatever technique this person claims to have developed (assuming for the sake of argument that some part of it is true) requires a very long period of training. frankly, we don't know that yet !!

[Blah]

This story reminds me of a Kiai Jitsu master who really believed that he can fight people without touching them. He would just wave his hands and his attackers would fall down around him. He believed in his power so much that he re-enforced those beliefs in himself and his students over and over again for many years. The students were brainwashed to the point that they actually believed in the power of their master and his ability to take them down without touching them.

Until the Kiai Master decided to fight a real jujitsu fighter who is not his disciple and hence not brainwashed by him. The Jujitsu fighter (MMA) beat the crap out of the Kiai master (video)

This indian guy is an example of people who are so full of themselves that they will re-enforce those faulty beliefs on themselves by being among people who shares his beliefs and dismissing anyone who doesn't.

We humans can surprise ourselves often by doing things that we thought was not possible and by pushing our body and mind beyond the limits of what we thought was possible and we will continue to do so, incrementally. But even those incremental pushing of our limits has its limits. For instance we will never run faster than a rocket. Most of you will rightfully show skepticism when someone claims that they can run faster than a rocket.

What this guy claimed is just not possible. Yes you MIGHT be able to push yourself by not eating or drinking for a period of time that was never done before and this guy MIGHT be able to live for ~15 days without any food or water and not doing any serious harm to his body. But it is simply not possible to survive without food or water for 70 years. The fact that some of you are taking this story seriously is troubling.

I am not at all surprised that this is coming from India, they have a history of people claiming dubious things (like making fuel out of water or getting 100% efficiency on solar or making laptop for ~$10) and their media and government giving those stories credence but no one ever follows up on them.

For this man to stay alive for 70 years without food or water he needs to break basic laws of physics, hence not possible. As simple as that.

[Zeeshan]

@ blah... Not "some" are taking this seriously. I think I am the only one in this forum who has kept an open mind. I don't believe it neither do I disbelieve it.

At any rate, not sure if you are aware of Kaku's book Hyperspace. Using analogy of Abbot's Flatland he gives example what a higher dimensional being is capable. Since I don't have the exact quotes from the book, here is what I could find from this link: http://mkaku.org/home/?page_id=416

Meeting a Higher Dimensional Being

To understand some of the mind-bending features of higher dimensions, imagine a two-dimensional world, called Flat land (after Edwin A. Abbott’s celebrated novel) that resembles a world existing on a flat table-top. If one of the Flatlanders becomes lost, we can quickly scan all of Flatland, peering directly inside houses, buildings, and even concealed places. If one of the Flatlanders becomes sick, we can reach directly into their insides and per form surgery, without ever cutting their skin. If one of the Flatlanders is incarcerated in jail (which is a circle enclosing the Flatlander) we can simply peel the person off from Flatland into the third dimension and place the Flatlander back somewhere else. If we become more ambitious and stick our fingers and arms through Flatland, the Flatlanders would only see circles of flesh that hover around them, constantly changing shape and merging into other circles. And lastly, if we fling a Flatlander into our three dimensional world, the Flatlander can only see two dimensional cross sections of our world, i.e. a phantasmagoria of circles, squares, etc. which constantly change shape and merge (see fig. 1 and 2). Now imagine that we are “three dimensional Flatlanders” being visited by a higher dimensional being. If we became lost, a higher dimensional being could scan our entire universe all at once, peering directly into the most tightly sealed hiding places. If we became sick, a higher dimensional being could reach into our insides and perform surgery without ever cutting our skin. If we were in a maximum-security, escape-proof jail, a higher dimensional being could simply “yank” us into a higher dimension and redeposit us back somewhere else. If higher dimensional beings stick their “fingers” into our universe, they would appear to us to be blobs of flesh which float above us and constantly merge and split apart. And lastly, if we are flung into hyperspace, we would see a collection of spheres, blobs, and polyhedra which suddenly appear, constantly change shape and color, and then mysteriously disappear. Higher dimensional people, therefore, would have powers similar to a god: they could walk through walls, disappear and reappear at will, reach into the strongest steel vaults, and see through buildings. They would be omniscient and omnipotent. Not surprisingly, speculation about higher dimensions has sparked enormous literary and artistic interest over the last hundred years.

The only reason I am so open minded is because I believe that who is to say that this man hasn't gained a 4-D man like transcendence to attain this sort of mind-of-matter ability through his mysticism. Again, I BELIEVE that Jesus and the likes of him also attained this sort of enlightenment by reaching this state of being (fourth dimension) if you will and was able to manipulate reality.

Again to reiterate my previous points, it's a matter of BELIEF and a man should be entitled to his or her own beliefs even if it brings ridicule from the norm. But it disgusts me that others should bully him for his or her own personal belief thinking it's so sexy to be skeptic that someone who believess in them must be a total nutcase. As I said it's his-his her-her own philosophical bent. And if someone has a problem with that I have my middle finger high up.

[Blah]

ZeeshanM.

I don't want to be rude and I don't have any intention of being intentionally rude to you. But because of the nature of the topic, spirituality and its relation with science and being open-mindedness, points will be made that will make your argument sound like childish and naive even if that was not the intention to be dismissive.

Regarding open-mindedness I will ask you kindly to watch this video which describes perfectly how I feel about the topic (I posted this video in this forum once before).

TL;DW of the video is "An open mind that demands no evidence will let in an awful lot of rubbish".

I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the well known Abbot's Flatland story and how this indian guy "gained a 4-D man like transcendence to attain this sort of mind-of-matter ability through his mysticism" (whatever thats supposed to mean).

Basically what I am saying is that this guy (or you) can believe absolutely anything you want and you can rightfully be an internet tough guy and show your middle finger to everyone who shows skepticism to your dubious beliefs; its doesn't change the fact that its rubbish. Its an extraordinary claim, its more than just a belief which exists only in your mind. And an extraordinary claim (live without food and water for 70 years) requires an extraordinary evidence (living without food and water for at-least few years under controlled environment with scientist from multiple institutions and the data has been peer reviewed independently) .

You can believe in any transcendence-4th dimensional-spirituality-mysticism if you want. Unless you have evidence to back it up its better not claim them as facts or a possibility of any substance.

Being open-minded without applying critical thinking will make you accept a lot of nonsense.

By the way. Anything over 3 dimensions only exists in mathematical constructs, there is absolutely zero evidence of any higher dimensions (beyond 3d) in reality. To the best of my knowledge.

[Zeeshan]

@blah late part of the post wasn't directed towards you. i was speaking in general.

[Zeeshan]

Originally Posted by Blah
ZeeshanM.
I don't want to be rude and I don't have any intention of being intentionally rude to you.

Nope you are not. There is a reason why I mentioned your name in Missing Members thread because as much as I disgree with you I look forward towards your intellectual posts.

Originally Posted by Blah
But because of the nature of the topic, spirituality and its relation with science and being open-mindedness, points will be made that will make your argument sound like childish and naive even if that was not the intention to be dismissive.

Good. It's better to have "childish" and "naive" mentality than one that is "fixed" with full of judgments or assumptions.

Originally Posted by Blah
Regarding open-mindedness I will ask you kindly to watch this video which describes perfectly how I feel about the topic (I posted this video in this forum once before).

TL;DW of the video is "An open mind that demands no evidence will let in an awful lot of rubbish".

Lol the video starts off with a definition as if written in stone tablet that "being open mindedness is willing to consider new ideas." wth? anyone can slap a definition to anything but that doesn't mean that it talks about everyone else's personal definition. MY open mindedness derives chiefly from philosophical-mathematical lens of NOT MAKING ANY ASSUMPTIONS AND QUESTIONING EVERYTHING. Thus if I were to be skeptical of something, it'd be wise for me to be skeptical of my own skepticism to begin with. So just because someone came up with a youtube video doesn't mean it defines me or my way of thinking and or for that matter my thoughts should abide by it. So when I say I am open minded in your book it may be "naive" and "childish" (actually I can only wish it was the latter case as children don't have preconceived sets of judgments)...in my book it's as logical as it can get. In fact I'd say whoever doesn't question things like Problem of induction during arguments tend to exhibit "childish" or "naive" thought process.

Originally Posted by Blah
I am not sure what point you are trying to make about the well known Abbot's Flatland story and how this indian guy "gained a 4-D man like transcendence to attain this sort of mind-of-matter ability through his mysticism" (whatever thats supposed to mean).

Please don't quote me out of context. My exact quote was: "The only reason I am so open minded is because I believe that who is to say that this man hasn't gained a 4-D man like transcendence to attain this sort of mind-of-matter ability through his mysticism."

Originally Posted by Blah
Basically what I am saying is that this guy (or you) can believe absolutely anything you want and you can rightfully be an internet tough guy and show your middle finger to everyone who shows skepticism to your dubious beliefs; its doesn't change the fact that its rubbish.

It's not about being "internet tough guy" but about pointing out the double standards that exists in others who criticise religious people for preaching yet they are themselves guilty of same proselytization of coercing their own sets of beliefs onto others on being more rational and logical. To quote your own words it's "troubling" if someone takes it seriously. It's a free universe and anyone is entitled to believe anything.

Originally Posted by Blah
Its an extraordinary claim, its more than just a belief which exists only in your mind. And an extraordinary claim (live without food and water for 70 years) requires an extraordinary evidence (living without food and water for at-least few years under controlled environment with scientist from multiple institutions and the data has been peer reviewed independently) .

You can believe in any transcendence-4th dimensional-spirituality-mysticism if you want. Unless you have evidence to back it up its better not claim them as facts or a possibility of any substance.

Well yes I can believe it and for that I don't need your or anyone else's permission (with due all respect). And neither did I label it as "fact" or nor am I shoving it down anyone else's throat to believe them. That was my point. On the other hand using ad hominem terms like "rubbish" "childish" "naive" to label other people's beliefs does you no good as it only shows an "either you are with us or against us" mentality of the fact that if a person believe in something that clashes with his or her views then he or she must be pilloried.

[Blah]

Originally Posted by ZeeshanM
... snipped

You are right. Everyone has the right to believe whatever nonsense they want, even to the extend to make their own dubious meaning of well-known concepts. I just hope that in your quest to open-mindedness you don't lose your control over rationality... that is whatever your own personal definition or understanding of the word rationality is.

I can only hope that your understanding and meaning of the word definition is the same as the widely consensually accepted understanding and meaning of the word definition.

And that also goes for the words "dubious", "concepts" and ad-infinitum...

You see, its kinda hard to communicate when you make up your own meanings of well understood and widely accepted words and concepts on the go.

Its almost troolish. (assuming your understanding of the word troolish is the same as the widely understood meaning of the word troolish)

[Zeeshan]

^ Absolutely! Hence, sage doesn't argue according to Lao Tsu.

But then again,
I am not one.
Well not until 4493 posts that is.

[Kabir]

Zeeshan is my boy. I got your back son.

Next time someone picks on you, I'll give you a lollypop. Ok son?

[Zeeshan]

Kobirda...I don't eat lollipop. I am on a 70 year old fast. However...however feel free to leave a thali of cash bundles in front of my shrine for my personal expenditures.
---------

Okay given the fact that I am neutral, it does bother me how come some of these guys don't go for Randi's million dollar claim and even if they shun materialism they can easily distribute the money amongst thousands of poor people in India. I DO agree with the skeptics that claims like these arise and people don't follow through. Speaking of follow through I have been watching youtube videos and there they mentioned that his brain scan reveals that of a man of 20s.

People seem to ASSUME that logic hasn't progressed much after Aristotle. Sure in classical logic, NOT TRUE would automatically mean FALSE but if I were to look it through lens of three-valued, multi-valued or fuzzy logic then there are many possibilities. Hence, if there are set of proofs p then the claim c may be true. But there is absolutely nothing that suggests (other than blind assumptions) that negating p, negates c or in other words lack of proof p automatically invalidate claim c. To be more specific, there are no set of proofs p that unicorns exist. But lack of p, doesn't mean that unicorns does not exist. There could be in some distant galaxy that there are creatures with one horns on their head which we haven't searched. What's so wrong to suggest that we simply don't know? I hope now it's clear what I meant when I said I am open minded meaning I am not taking any sides and chiefly viewing this claim with neutral eyes.

At any rate, I would be definitely interested to see how this progresses. And why the F does Indian media talk about it's benefit in space travel. WTH! There are millions dying from famine and people should be more concerned in trying to apply it's usage in that area IE assuming there is any truth to it.

[goru]

From a "study" done in 2003 - http://www.amazingabilities.com/amaze5a.html

Breatharians!

[Kabir]

Z, was pulling your leg. But yes, ami lottery jitle definitely tomar thala te dui char ta dollar bill rakhbo.

Back on topic: So what happened? Did he manage to stay without food under monitoring? Or was the camera light enough to make him hungry?

[Blah]

The single biggest medical discovery in the history of mankind and no information since day 6.

Total information blackout from all forms of media. I can only guess why. After some digging around, I saw this short piece done by Discovery Channel where the yogi claims that he can live for 1000 to 5000 years. If that doesn't screw up your BS meter. The doctor who is doing the so called "monitoring" and "research" is a big kuku who mixes medical science with spirituality, meditation and hindu religion. [His website] His research paper on Prolonged Fasting (How is it possible - A Hypothesis)(PDF)

This is a quote from his "research paper" (or rather Hypothesis). Albiet taken out of context, but it speaks for itself. Feel free to read the whole hypothesis linked above. I have, unfortunately.

Ever since mankind has started ignoring the psychically & Spiritually equipped pineal gland it has fallen on merely physical-material plane & therefore endless pains have fallen on the mankind.

Mankind must now relearn to activate pineal & the other psychospiritual bodies either through cosmic energy dynamics or through practice of Rajyoga or the Tantrik ways or other such practices.( One can imagine that high voltage energy transmission through shaktipat as occasionally yogis do to transfer energy in to their esteem disciples may be utilizing pineal gland or similar bodies) Kundlini Shakti is said to be activated through these & happiness & bliss with peace are bound to follow.

So what we have here is a nutjob claiming to have lived for 70 years without food and water (and also claims that he can live for 1000s of years like this), goes to another nutjob (claims to be a doctor) who not only believes in this guy but has a history of doing this kind of BS research in the past. The person in charge of this experiment not have any neutral view on the subject, he encourages such BS and links it to hindu religion with the single goal of preaching religion to the masses.

Glad I don't have an unfiltered open mind. :)

[zman]

It's plain and simple...if the guy's not a fraud, he suffers from some kind of food amnesia. The symptom is generally associated with people who eat too much and forget how much they eat. For this gentleman, he seems to be a special case who eats so little that he forgets what he eats.

The guy is obviously capable of surviving without food for prolonged periods at a time. That explains why he was able to survive 6 (or was it 10?) days minus food at the lab vs. the 4 days an avg human being can survive. Now it's a scientific fact that the brain, although accounts for only 2 percent of our body weight, sucks down about 20 percent of our daily calory intake. In this gentleman's case, the lack of intake of food, brain foods in particular--such as blueberry, wild salmon, certain types of nuts--causes some form of amnesia. Anybody who unintentionally missed sahoor once or twice and ended up fasting almost two/three days in a row will know what I'm talking about. Both body and mind become weak, after a while the mind almost shuts down, some suffer from headaches and some, I've heard, even suffer from amnesia.